Health bill a milestone or a mistake?

Discussion in 'Current Events' started by TheNickiOfDoom, Mar 22, 2010.

?

Health Care Reform bill...

Poll closed Apr 21, 2010.
  1. Milestone?

    13 vote(s)
    65.0%
  2. Mistake?

    7 vote(s)
    35.0%
  1. aseretsperry

    aseretsperry Member

    My friends mom CRIED when they passed this. People are blowing the whole act way out of proportion if you ask me. I think that it's just adding a little bit of humanity to our country (America) because i get the whole idea of capitalism, and i get that it's supposed to be the best we can get, but that's just because america is literally flooded with selfish bastards who don't want to hell anyone but themselves out. Socialism doesn't fail unless people want it to fail, Canada and even Mexico are doing okay with socialism. They're still in debt but they're doing better than we are. What's wrong with making the free-est land even free-er? I do agree with what we've done with the bill (seriously, medical services in America are bad, not horrible but they are bad and we're paying for the shitty service with a ton of money) but i know it's just not going to work because nobodg wants to try for it.
    people are already giving up on it because they're so ignorant and stubborn as to what it can do for us. The bill really is designed for the middle class, rather than the lower class, because you can either afford everything or you're so poor that the government pays entirely for you. that's great and all, but a lot of america isn't poor but can't afford to raise 3 kids, send them to college and keep a mortgage going, but the government turns a cold shoulder on them. where's the freedom in that? america is doomed to fail from the moment the bill passed, but it's not the bill's fault, it's the people who don't want to try's fault. Like obama said, we didn't get where we are because of the "easy way" and the "easy way" isn't going to get out of debt.
     
  2. Thumbelina

    Thumbelina Administrator Staff Member

    Huh?
     
  3. aseretsperry

    aseretsperry Member

    Basically america expects the typical american family to afford the typical american needs (aka 3 kids sent to college while keeping up with car payments, mortgages, electric and gas bills, etc) in my personal experience, the government has fucked my entire family over more than once because we're halfway, neither rich nor poor. Most of the population is middle class and most of us can't afford health care while we also can't afford to pay for other people's health care. the biggest bull shit part of the bill is that they fine you for NOT having health care. I like this thing, but i also hate it.
     
  4. Thumbelina

    Thumbelina Administrator Staff Member

    ^But you CAN afford health insurance and to foot all the bills should any one in your family fall seriously ill/become injured?
    Also, typical American needs include THREE children being sent to college? Tbh, I'm going to give that one a "no". I get the whole average family usage thing, but I don't think the average family would send all three of their kids to uni - at least, not here they wouldn't (going by the stats) - and I know that the US and UK are different, but still.

    Tbh, it seems that most people who come from countries who already have this kind of thing are for this bill in the US and since we already have the systems (the NHS has been going for more than sixty years), you'd think we'd know.
    That sounds really arrogant and condescending, I know (and it is) and it's not really supposed to be, but really, I just don't get the opposition to it. Yeah, yeah, taxes, taxes! But, people were paying them anyway and people were paying for insurance anyway and like, I dunno, I just don't get why people oppose this.
     
  5. aseretsperry

    aseretsperry Member

    ^I get you being from the UK and all, one of my teachers is from France and she's completely for the bill since she liked the system in france better than the one we have here. And I like socialism, I like that we have a little more freedom in the sense that we don't have to worry about not getting sick all the time if we don't have insurance or can't afford the overpriced medication (I know that in France you pay for it but you get reimbursed for what you spend) and America would be completely fine with socialism, people just don't want it because the founding fathers (benjamin, washington, adams etc) had capitalism in mind. It's obvious to the rest of the world that America is selfish and only want to take care of themselves, because that's how the country's always been.

    I'm really double sided on this, and I probably seem stupid opposing and supporting this, but I really do! It's a double standard which doesn't make sense, even to me, because this isn't something you can be double sided on... but I just am O.O

    I love the bill because there will finally be a bit of humanity and decency in the American economy... but I hate it because I could care less about the people who could care less about themselves. I hate living in America as much as I love it. I just want to worry about myself (see, american's are selfish) because that's enough as it is.
     
  6. TheNickiOfDoom

    TheNickiOfDoom Time Lord

    I understand what you're saying, and I completely agree. We are selfish, but what would you expect? We were taught to be this way all of our years growing up. This is what America is used to, and we don't like change when it comes to the constitution.
     
  7. xokay_nowx

    xokay_nowx Become, become, become

    ^ The Consitution shouldn't be changed...

    I know I'm way late on this, but it's important, so, my two cents:
    It is a mistake. It is unconstitutional to force citizens to buy any good or service (i.e. health insurance).

    This bill is welfare for the middle class, paid for by people like my father ($100k++ income), so no, of course I'm not too pleased about it.

    If I were on the flip side, would I feel differently? Sure, probably.

    The Cliff Notes on American political parties:

    The Democratic party: the entitlement party, gimme gimme gimme more, more welfare, more healthcare. Sure, I don't have a job- that doesn't mean I don't deserve a house and a car and education and healthcare and Nikes, too!

    The Republican party: the adults in the room who work for their money and don't want to see it taken away to go fund the welfare checks of the crack addicts and prostitutes downtown. (I know they're there. I've seen them. If you lived here I could take you for a drive and I could show them to you.)

    /wow, there's always a lot of FOX news/political talk radio playing in my house, and it shows, LOL
     
  8. Don Ricalo

    Don Ricalo Panda Bear.

    Say no more.
     
  9. Thumbelina

    Thumbelina Administrator Staff Member

    I don't know the exact exchange rate, but that's about £70 000 (I'm assuming per year) which is a hell of a lot of money for you to be bitching about paying a little extra tax on it. Seriously, that's a lot of money to be earning, and it makes you damn selfish to think you shouldn't give a little to universal healthcare (sorry, but it is).
    I see your point with some of the things you said and yes, sometimes benefits and things 'solve' the wrong 'problems', but there's no way a little bit of extra tax makes this health bill a mistake.
     
  10. Don Ricalo

    Don Ricalo Panda Bear.

    £65,032.

    Megan, people here earning under $15k a year still pay for it. I'm sure you can afford some pocket change.
     
  11. xokay_nowx

    xokay_nowx Become, become, become

    LOL. I love the way the public opinion is "FOX = idiots."
    Such a wonderful defense mechanism, to write us off as crazies.

    It's not "a little extra tax;" in reality, the amount our family pays in taxes is well over the amount that many families make, in gross, all year.
    And the bottom 50% earners over here pay almost literally no taxes.

    Am I going to deny that my point of view is selfish? Hell no. Of course it is.
    (I've got the balls to say it; sue me.)

    But there are some people out there who would like to tax families like us at a 50% rate; at that point, why even try to earn a decent living when it's just going to be taken away from you and "redistributed"?

    In reality we'd be paying much more than others to get the same shitty services as everyone else.

    The fact that our family's taxes will go up is not the only reason I'm against this bill; I'm against basically everything that it's for, but it's a complex issue to go into, isn't it?
    Basically, I don't think that what you guys have in England is the right approach to healthcare for us; I think that what we have here suits our needs perfectly and that the only problem is that rates are going up because people are living much longer with more chronic conditions (most caused by obesity), which gets expensive.
    So what we have is not in fact a "health care" crisis but also a public HEALTH crisis. People are eating themselves into conditions like diabetes, then living with them for 30+ years; this gets expensive to pay for and no matter who pays for it, someone's got to foot the bill and that bill will not be cheap.

    Another problem is that Medicaid and uninsured patients can go into any American hospital with whatever health crisis they are experiencing and receive treatment for free. Should they be turned away? No, not necessarily, but they should be allowed to "dine and dash" as they are now, either.

    Firsthand, in my short lifetime, I have known of two examples of people stealing in massive quantities from the taxpayers' support of our hospitals:

    Exhibit A: A woman who was our next-door neighbor for eight years in Orlando is an illegal immigrant from the Carribean island of Trinidad. She and her husband have six children, all born in the U.S.
    All were born in American hospitals, most were born prematurely, and each time she paid nothing, nada, zero of the bill, averaging $20,000 for each baby. So there's $120,000, stolen.

    Exhibit B: My uncle Steven, who died of alcoholism in December 2008, lived as an alcoholic/drug addict/basic street degenerate for about 30 years before his unfortunate death at the age of 51. During these 30 years, he has checked into hospital detox MANY times to try to get sober... they sign him up for Medicaid, and say, you don't owe the state a thing.

    Then, in fall 2008, he drank himself unconscious and was found passed out beside a dumpster. Someone called 911; we got the very unfortunate call on Thanksgiving day. Now, by this point, he had had cirrhosis of the liver for many years, and basically, his organs were all failing. He was dying. It was very unfortunate and there was nothing anyone could really do... what should have been done is, they should have let the man just fucking die a natural, peaceful death.

    But instead they keep him alive (if you can call it that) for about three extra weeks via blood tranfusions and God knows what else. There was never any hope for a full recovery, but the doctors pursue these treatments because the government will subsidize them and the more treatments they give, the more money they are awarded.

    What was the grand total bill on this horrific spectacle? Beats me.
    Maybe $100k, $200k, just for him to die?
    And all those rehabs? Oh, $20k a shot or so.
    What an epic waste of money. I say this as his niece, who knew him well and spent many a Christmas with him. If I don't think the taxpayers should have to pay for this kind of shit, then who the hell does?!
     
  12. Don Ricalo

    Don Ricalo Panda Bear.

    Wow, 2 cases?
    Really think that such a minority is the reason you can write off a healthcare system for 309+ million people?

    As a country you really need to get your morals sorted. Fuck the constitution. It's 250 years old, move the fuck on.
     
  13. xokay_nowx

    xokay_nowx Become, become, become

    Just off the top of my head, $300,000 was STOLEN, Richard, stolen.
    You don't have a problem with that?

    It's not the only reason I'm writing off the bill, it's one of many.

    We pay a hell of a lot of taxes, and even with that, that's what, 6 years of our taxes going solely to fund these two families' dine-and-dash emergency room visits.

    I suppose you think socialism is better, right.
    Well, I don't. I believe in the Constitution. Sorry if you don't, but then again, you're not American, you never took American History.

    Basically, paying for everyone's healthcare isn't PRACTICAL. That's the point I'm trying to get across.
     
  14. Don Ricalo

    Don Ricalo Panda Bear.

    Not stolen, wasted. A doctor takes an oath. They cannot simply ignore when their job is to do the best they can. The NHS wastes millions/billions on lost cases, but it's a right as a citizen to receive the best healthcare available, regardless.

    I never took American history, huh? Yeah, alright. Well I'm sure you personally and everyone you know faced real hardship fighting for that independence. Oh, wait, no. Because it was so fucking long ago none of that shit even matters anymore and you all need to move on and welcome yourselves to the 21st century.

    Yes, that's 2 people's hospital visits you've paid for. Now consider when you happen to have multiple accidents, when other people have multiple accidents. You're all paying to cover each other's backs with an immediate, undeniable service.

    You people are so fucking backwards it's unreal.
    This is like reading the discussion about consumer return/repair/refund policies on another forum, you're all so ridiculous about everything, thinking you're better off fighting everything alone. Yet your country still wonders why everyone hates them...
     
  15. Nephilim

    Nephilim Give me love.

    I see where you're coming from Megan, but you do have to move past it. My Dad pays more in taxes then most people in my town earn, not even joking, but when I think of the amount of times I've been in and out of hospital and never had to pay a dime I'm so thankful for it.
    I would've easily spent thousands in hospital and if there wasn't Medicare over here my family would never have been able to pull that money out when needed in those sudden bursts. Yeah, I do get mad at the idea of paying for the people in the bronx sometimes, but not not everyone wrongly uses the system. Would you want your young children, or even you yourself, to have to suffer through an illness because you can't afford to pay a doctor? The concept alone is disgusting to me.
    Everyone deserves the chance to be able to recieve the needed medical treatement. It's as simple as that, and you just need to think about the amount of suffering people helped through this. Is having more money better then knowing that if you ever fell sick, there would always be help? Really think about it, the many right things about this concept heavily over throw the wrong.


    Edit: Another thing, aren't you meant to be a Christian, Megan? Where is your compassion to helping the suffering? Look back on all you've said, and take a second to think about how selfish you really sound. I know this is cheesy to most, but what would Jesus do in a situation like this? Do you believe that he would rather you hold onto your money for your what? Material posessions, rather then help those in need? Christians fighting this is so warped.
     
  16. xokay_nowx

    xokay_nowx Become, become, become

    Richard:

    In my case of my uncle, the doctors were not trying to do the best they could to give treatment.
    They were prolonging the life of a man who had no chance for recovery, for no reason, other than wanting to be compensated for their services.

    You're pretty idealistic on this issue, for being so cynical most of the time.

    Of course history matters, Richard.
    "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." - George Santayana

    Basically, I don't TRUST the government to handle my healthcare or anyone else's. The government as a whole tends towards the side of incompetence; I don't want it fucking with my healthcare.

    I know exactly why the rest of the world hates Americans; we're richer! It's called envy. Boo hoo. People felt the same exact way about you Brits for oh, I dunno, several centuries?


    Ayesha:

    Jesus would have been idealistic and have said, "Give 'em all healthcare," yeah. You're right.

    I'm not Jesus, unfortunately; I'm not idealistic. I'm cynical and jaded and mistrustful of the ability of our government to ration out healthcare when they really don't seem to be able to do ANYTHING ELSE right.

    And as for the bit before that, yeah, I can relate to what you're writing there... I do sound selfish. I am being selfish on this issue.

    It would be awesome if the result of all this was that everyone got great healthcare, but I tend to see it as more likely for the result to be everyone getting shitty healthcare.

    I'm sorry for being such a bitch on this, haha. Part of me wishes that I'd never responded to this topic, but part of me enjoys discussing things that matter to me even when I'm not met with agreement.
     
  17. Don Ricalo

    Don Ricalo Panda Bear.

    No, but in those few words you've proven exactly why.
    You're all completely oblivious and selfish, an entire country of absolute cunts.
    For someone who's meant to be an accepting Christian, you're incredibly narrow minded.

    As for your uncle, I was more referring to the past attempts before he was a complete loss and simply fighting a lost battle.

    Remembering the past and learning from it? You people haven't changed or tried anything in 250 years to be worth mentioning anything of the sort.
     
  18. xokay_nowx

    xokay_nowx Become, become, become

    Oh okay. That makes sense.

    I have my flaws, as do you.
    I've never claimed to be open-minded, nor has Christianity really ever espoused "open-mindedness" of any kind.

    I was referring to the fact that I believe American history is worth studying and I believe the Constitution is still relevant.
    Two hundred fifty years? Ain't got nothing on the Bible.
     
  19. Thumbelina

    Thumbelina Administrator Staff Member

    ^Not that it's my opinion or anything, but using the Bible to back up the Constitution is NOT going to get you anywhere.
     
  20. xokay_nowx

    xokay_nowx Become, become, become

    I'm not, necessarily, I'm just saying that old doesn't necessarily = outdated/irrelevant.
    You don't like the Bible example, how about Shakespeare? Should we throw his works in the garbage simply because it's been a couple centuries?
     

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